Don Woodstock: Unrelenting

Matt Cundill  0:00  
Announcer, you may also like a show about the things you may also like things like an unrelenting approach to the environment. Don Woodstock arrived in Canada in 1995 and has made a considerable contribution to Canada's environmental movement, simply by being unrelenting. When someone says no, I should know I was one of those persons who told him no. He asked and demanded changes to how garbage and recycling was marketed to the people of Winnipeg, and got them to make the changes necessary to put recycling first. Later, he asked that plastic bags be banned, and it took a while, but it happened, if you thought you can't fight city hall, let me introduce you to Don Woodstock.

Don Woodstock  0:53  
When was that? That was 1995 Oh, my God. Now you make me feel old.

Matt Cundill  1:03  
Well, you came from Jamaica, and I think it's really important here for you to tell me what Jamaica taught you, a little bit about the environment, but tell me what it was like growing up in Jamaica,

Don Woodstock  1:13  
fortunately for me, and I use the word fortunate today, but back when I was growing up as a kid, there's some aspect of my childhood that I did not really like, but I grow to appreciate them, and one of them is, I was raised on a farm in St Elizabeth, Jamaica. Farming was a way of life. You didn't have a choice, Matt, you had to be involved in farming as a young kid, otherwise you don't eat, you don't drink, you don't get water, you don't There's nothing you do without farming. So that part was hard, but it was fun. I walked to school bare feet. People now scoff at that idea. Little did I know then that that was the best form of reflexology in the world. Money can't buy. And so playing in the dirt and playing in the mud is something that people would shy away from, but it helps you, it molds you, it improves your immune system so you don't get sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, every thing that sneeze allergies. We rarely have allergies because we were everywhere. We were walking in through the fields, and we stepped in a cow dung or cow patty, and it was nothing. It was nothing. It was like you're stepping in mud. It didn't matter to you. No, people shy away from it, but no, it's a it's an interesting time in my life that I appreciate, and I don't miss the opportunity, you know, to tell people about it, because at the end of the day, that's what that's what made me who I am.

Matt Cundill  2:47  
And when you came to Canada was Winnipeg the ultimate destination, the first destination when you got here.

Don Woodstock  2:53  
No Toronto, everybody, everybody in the world, land in Toronto back then, and so, fast pace, bustling, crazy. And, you know, the first time I went on the 401, I almost had kittens, man, six lanes of traffic, everybody driving at 100 and odd clicks an hour. Like, seriously, I'm like, What? What is this? But, you know, you stop over in Winnipeg, I started my career I'm in today, started in Toronto, believe it or not, doing door to door sales in Toronto for ADT at the time, unbelievable in the cold, crazy. But I loved it, Matt, I loved it. There was something unique about it, refreshing. Hey, listen, and don't get me wrong, the first month of my door to door career in Canada, it took me 130 days working straight before I made my first sale. And it's like that was hard, but you know what kept me going a still, small voice in the back of my head that my grandfather always said to me, son, is it bigger than you? So I answered that call by saying, No, it's not. I'm gonna find a way to make it happen. So after the humiliation and the hurt and the neglect. 30 days later, when I made my first sale, Matt, oh my god, the excitement so much so I was a top guy. There was nobody in the office that made more sale than me. The President of the company came down and says he has a competition, and he's going to give away a jacket, a nice little jacket and $100 I said to him, make it 150 and nobody beats me. And he says, Oh, you're cocky. I said, not cocky. I'm just confident nobody will beat me that day, it was a Saturday. The average person. Makes about two or three sales that day, I made 11.

Matt Cundill  5:06  
Well, I can tell you that, as somebody who sold something to me at one point with persistence, I'm aware of that, but when you got to Winnipeg, what was the sense of community that you brought from Jamaica that really sort of made you say we need to make changes in Winnipeg, and we need to do it as a community. And listen where you were growing up, in Jamaica, there's an immediate sense of community. Winnipeg, for instance, it's a different sense of community. It's just tougher to bring together. So what was the first thing that you noticed in Winnipeg that needed fixing?

Don Woodstock  5:41  
Well, the first thing I recognize here, which was unique, because I lived in BC for a little bit. I've stayed over time in Edmonton a little bit as well, traveling salesman on the road. So when you go Toronto BC, Edmonton, and then to Winnipeg, you realize we have a very multicultural fabric here. It's a small community, much, much smaller than Toronto, much, much smaller than Vancouver, and so as a result of that, you get to recognize there's so many diversity of people. So I thought to myself immediately, hey, this is like Jamaica, with the exception of the weather, right? With the exception of the weather. This is, this is typical Jamaica. So that kind of gave me a sense of, you know, what? Maybe I could develop something here that is, because it would take me less time to get to go from one end of the of Winnipeg to the next, and I'm going to bump into more people. And so as a result of that, that's okay, but the Filipino community, I gotta give shout out to the Filipino community, because living among them, seeing what they do, these guys have party for everything. They have a fiesta or a birthday or a a social or a party for everything you can think of. A birthday for the dog turns into a party and karaoke. If you go into a Filipino home and they do not have a karaoke machine, it's not a Filipino home, everybody is into karaoke. And I love karaoke. So so that kind of helped me to kind of go, this is Winnipeg. This is what is going to be. And so I was able to amalgamate myself, adapt, you know, and be comfortable with them, and they're comfortable with me, and this just became home, home, away from home.

Matt Cundill  7:29  
How did you get this idea that you could create change? Because I've got the issues in my head for what you've wanted to create change for over the years. But where does that come from? Your desire for strong community change

Don Woodstock  7:44  
goes back to my grandfather. As a little kid, my grandfather would send me down the river. We didn't have running water. So if the rain doesn't fall and you don't catch water from your rooftop into your drums and the back, you have to go down the stream to catch water and bring up to use. And so we learn very, very early what that all is all about. So my grandfather would give me challenges, and he would say to me, ask me the question, son, is it bigger than you? After you have tried it a few times and fail, and he showed you how simply it is, then the next time he gives you a task, you're going to be hesitant to say it's bigger than you regardless of the task. Listen as a kid, I didn't want to sound soon and look foolish. Okay, you want to look like at least you're trying. So of course, he gives me the basket, and they say, go down the river and catch some water. And I'm going, this guy is crazy, but you know what I'm going because you didn't have the luxury of telling your grandparents, no, you didn't have the luxury of talking back those days didn't exist. Shouting back at it didn't exist. What's that crazy? So go down the river, and I must have spent all evening down there. Every time I catch water in this basket. I'm wet, I'm crying, I'm cold, I'm like, This is crazy. And here comes my grandfather, coming down through the bushes, and he cuts these some people know it as taro root. We know it as Badu or coco in Jamaica, this big, broad leaf things. And here this guy, and he cuts these leaves and he puts them into the basket, catch water, put it on my head, and say, let's go. And I'm going, oh my god, this is all it took. So what do you think happened next time when a challenge come up on you, Don, you'll never win. Don, you run. You can't do this. When they tell me at city hall that we will never get rid of the bins in the back lane, right? They said that to me. How many times I go, really? And then I a voice in my head go, Okay, son, is it bigger than you? Don you'll never get this at the city to vote against this. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. A voice comes in ahead. Is it bigger than you? Do, right? And so you rise to the occasion and say, okay, game on. You put your game face on, just like Paul Maurice. Paul Maurice to tell him that he's no good. He can't do anything any further with his career, because he can't make Winnipeg a champion city. Well, he has 222, Sally cup. Now, ain't it again? You're rising to the occasion. So whenever something comes up on your mat, whatever the circumstances, and that is what the message in the book, unrelenting, right? That's the message in the book, regardless of what you're thinking, regardless of what's happening, ask yourself the question, is it bigger than you? Is there no way it can be done? And that's why the video trailer on the website says, What if everything you have been taught cannot be done, really can be done. What if everything they tell you was impossible. It's actually possible. What if? Everything they tell you that there's no way that this could be done. There is actually a way in which can be done. And make no mistake about it, these naysayers are the don'ts and the do's and the cards. This is not just coming from dead strangers. This would be coming from your wife, your husband, your partner, your mother, your father, your sister, your brother. Don't blame them. Steve Harvey, mother told him to give up comedy. He'll never make it on TV. Okay? Steve Harvey is on TV with his own TV show multiple networks, so don't believe that something that people say can't be done. Don't believe it. That's the message of this book, and that's why it's unrelenting.

Matt Cundill  11:57  
Yeah, I love how you're holding it up like you're worried I'm not even going to plug it throughout the entire you know, before the show, after the show, there's a link in the show notes. If you wanna go and get the book, don't worry, it'll all be there. But there are things that you taught me in the story I'm gonna get you to tell, and that's your desire to promote recycling in Winnipeg to the point where you needed to go before City Hall, you needed to ask them to make changes, but you put a few other building blocks in front of it in order to pressure them to make the change. So why don't I'll let you tell the story, and at some point you'll mention how, how you and I met in the process, and how we kind of did it, you know, in tandem at some point. But, but tell the story about, first, why you wanted to make this change for Winnipeg and promote recycling and then the legacy that came after it.

Don Woodstock  12:46  
So being a country boy from Jamaica, grew up on a farm, I had an opportunity to meet Dr David Suzuki when he came to Winnipeg. So the question was asked, if you were a prime minister on his if you were a prime minister tour, what would you do if you're a prime minister? And I thought, the simplest thing I can do is talk about water and the importance of water. Well, we have 1000 lakes or 10,000 lakes in Manitoba, so to speak. So we got a lot of water here. So I said, Well, you know, why don't we? If I was Prime Minister, if for any reason, anybody wants to get equalization payment, which Winnipeg, which Manitoba does get is I would simply ask them to protect their water way before they can receive an equalization payment. I thought that was a simple, simple foregone conclusion. That is just practical, common sense. Well, it made it to the top of the phone chain. So I get a chance to meet Doctor David Suzuki personally, take a picture with him and everything, and I tell him what my thing was. And he says, wow. He says, you know, that is brilliant. We're going to use it. I said, go ahead. You have my permission. I said, What do you do in a city where nobody cares about recycling, we were like the bottom of the ladder for recycling. We have the best landfill here in the entire country. We were buying garbage from Ontario to stockpile here because our landfills are so great, you know, nonsense, right? So I said, What do you do? And he said to me, son, start at the local level and don't stop. Whatever you're doing. Start at the local level and don't stop. So of course, I go, Okay, so now I go to City Hall. Nobody would listen to me. Who do I know? God bless Harvey Smith. Harvey was a man for the people. He didn't care about the politics. He didn't care about what Association you have. If you have an idea, you have a concern, and you try to see Harvey, Chris, who is still there, will take your call and he will forward it to Harvey, and Harvey would stay back late at night to get back to you. So. When Harvey Smith came in the picture harvested, Don I want you to go talk to these people, and he lobbied the back end for me. So I got an opportunity to go in front of City Hall. I was the first presenter that morning. So I said, Oh my god, what am I going to do? Eight o'clock in the morning? What am I doing? So this song came to me, Harold Melvin, and the blue notes, wake up everybody. No more sleeping in bed. No, we're backward thinking. Wake up everybody. So I say I am going to do that song acapella style, and that was going to be my presentation. So of course, I practice Matt. Matt. I think I must have practiced that song about 100 times star more. Needless to say, I said, Good morning. My presentation is as follows, wake up, everybody. No more sleeping in bed. That was my presentation. The entire song. When I finished, I was expecting people to kind of go, yeah, I get a clap standing ovation. Oh, my God, I go. What? Okay, this is cool, right? CBC picked it up and says, I'm the first guy who sang at City Hall ever. So I made some news. Then I started to bug people like yourself, and others starting to bug people. Like I said, I'll send about three or four emails. And I said, guys, we're gonna do something here. And so of course, you know, some people turn me away. Some people call me a kind of names, like, the list goes on. I could get in all of the negatives. But needless to say, You gave me five minutes. You said, Don I'm gonna listen to you for five minutes so that you can stop sending me emails. That's a matter. I take it and thank you for those five minutes, because Winnipeg owes us. Winnipeg owes you that five minutes, because it's not until you came along before media start paying attention to

Matt Cundill  16:54  
it. Well, you made a good sale in five minutes. Yes,

Don Woodstock  16:59  
the door to door salesman, and me, right, but I was cool. I was good five minutes, and I thank you kindly for that five minutes, because, yes, we have to do something different. You know, it's not up to the government, it's not up to another corporation. It's not up to nobody but us. It's we, it's me, it's you, it's we.

Matt Cundill  17:19  
I was sitting as the program director of a young hip rock radio station, lot of listeners in town, and you came in with an idea, and I thought I had nothing to lose by saying yes. And the Ask was really simple, stop calling it garbage day. Start calling it recycle day. And I said, Well, what's that gonna do? And I pushed back, and he said, Well, we're gonna change the culture. I said, How's this gonna change the culture? It says, I'm telling you, we just need to change the vocabulary and the culture. And you'll see. And it cost me nothing to do that. And here's one radio station out of 15 that's just started calling it recycle day. And first of all, for, you know, for those who don't know radio in Winnipeg, at the time, it was garbage day 123, garbage day four, garbage day five, garbage day six. It was always announced that if your garbage day came up, you knew whether or not the garbage would be coming around. That's since changed. It's now everybody knows whether it's Monday through Friday when the recycle truck comes. Now, with that said, we started to say, Okay, it's recycle day two. And people were like, well, is that different? No, because they both get picked up at the same time. So call it recycling. People will then start to think about recycling first, instead of the garbage. And you used an example, by the way, I think of there was just a kid at a school who didn't know where to put their can. Does it go in the garbage, or does it go and recycle? Well, just if you put it in the recycle, it in the recycle, it will find its way to the garbage anyway, but think of the recycle first was the point, and we had, as a radio station, the power. We had the audience, we had the we controlled the language and the vernacular, and that's where you were, right? And I'm so glad I said yes that day, because it taught me a lot about my audience, but it taught me a lot about the power of language and radio that I think you forget when you're so busy playing 10 in a row and trying to make budget and commercials and ad records and deal with talents and all that stuff that was that was large, but now you got to tell the story about what happened when you finally made the appearance in City Hall and got it done. So Sam cats

Don Woodstock  19:20  
was the deciding vote. But most importantly, Councilor Mike pacter Khan and councilor Dodd Steve had to put a motion on the floor, because without a motion on the floor to make the change, it couldn't be done. And those two men, with the push from councilor Harvey Smith, I've decided to go along with it. The only reason why Harvey Smith is not in the picture when I took the picture with Sam cats and God Steves and Mike practical was because the NDP government at the time want nothing to do with the environment, nothing at all. So anything along those lines, they would say, No, cut it down, shut it down. Dead issue. Don't even discuss it. Don't even vote for it. Vote against it. The same NDP government who is trying to tell people whatever they want to tell them, people don't even know that. So as a result of that, the man who was responsible for orchestrating this in the back asked me to make a solemn pledge with him. He says, Unless I am dead, don't call my name in this issue. So on his death, I went to his funeral and I told him the story. I said, Listen, I made him a promise, and I told him I would keep the honor until his death. Now he's gone. God bless his soul. May he rest in peace. Now I can tell you the truth, he did not want to go against the grain of his party, but because Sam Katz decided, as much as people like him or hate him, he's he. He thought it was a simple ask, and he thought that the time I took to bring an acapella song to bear for my entire presentation, and the fact that I sounded half decent, he said, You know what, I'll vote yes in favor, because I saw the effort. He said, Don you've made an effort to bring us some ideas, something different that is going to let us think about this a little differently, and for that, yep, I vote in favor to have it done. We were 33% of Winnipeggers were participating in the recycling program at the time. Today is over 95% participation rate today. That's huge. I'm still alive. I'm still pinching myself, my God, look where we came. You know,

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  21:50  
this podcast supports podcasting 2.0 so feel free to send us a boost if you are listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting two point org slash apps. That's podcasting two point org slash apps.

Matt Cundill  22:05  
The next one after that, by the way, was plastic bags. So you came back to me again, and I said, Yeah, listen, I'm going to give you some PSA time for public service announcements. And we talked about plastic bags. And this one is weirder and more difficult. Places like San Francisco gets they get rid of plastic bags, no problem. But it took a long time again for not only Winnipeg, but for Canada to really, sort of, you know, move plastic bags along, like it took you about seven eight years to get that going.

Don Woodstock  22:33  
Seven eight years, almost nine years before it actually came. But you know what again is my grandfather, remember now the plastic bag industry, the grocery stores, they were making 2345, 600% on selling you a bag for five cents. There is nothing in their store that they make that kind of mark upon, nothing. So it was a money maker for them. And here you have a fellow from Jamaica who is asking them to drop their biggest profit margin. Like, what are you doing? Crazy, right? But enough cannot be said about Deborah Green from polo Park shopping center. She's retired now I went and I asked everybody I know, and from one personally to the next to the next to the next to the next, I wouldn't stop. I was unrelenting in my ask. And I met Deborah green, and Deborah says, you know, we are having a meeting with the Retailers Association of Canada. You're not invited to that meeting, but for what you're asking, it doesn't hurt to ask them. So she invite me to the meeting. I was not slated to speak. I said, Deborah, all I want is two minutes. I asked you for five. I asked her for two. And Deborah says, why not? So when they met, all the retailers across Canada was on the conference call. I was in Deborah's office, and Deborah picked the time in and invite me in. And so ladies and gentlemen, this is Mister Don Woodstock, blah, blah, blah. She introduced me briefly, and I have a ask. And all I said to them was, give me a day, one day. Give me a day in which we promote reusable bags instead of plastic bag. I said that one day is not going to take much from your margin, your profit margins. I know you guys are making a lot of money in this I know because I've seen the stats. I've seen the numbers. I know it. It's okay. Give me one day. You have 365 day of the year. Give me one and Deborah picked that day and says, Okay, let's do it on that day. And because she said she was going to do it on that day, Saint Vitel Shopping Center says yes. Kildonan play Shopping Center said, Yes. Then it left. The retailers going, Wait a minute, if these guys are going to say yes, we can't look like. A stooge so Sobeys jump on board right away, because they had a bag program that I had worked with earlier, when I had a plastic bag Day event, and I gave away a whole bunch of plastic bags for that one day that no led to something that I never know, I could ever see in a million years happen the major malls and grocery stores promoting reusable bags for one day. That was it. That's all I needed. That's all it took one day. And that started something that was now everybody going, wait a minute now, I see dollar Rama. Dollar Rama, instead of giving away a plastic bag, they're selling the bags. Okay, they're selling the bags, but there's so many bags. At one point, they used to give it away because they realized that we have to care. There has to be something else, other than what we're

Matt Cundill  25:51  
doing. And that was the Ask that's incredible. There are still, by the way, garbage and recycle bins in back alleys across, you know this city and others. Does it still bother you? Or is there another solution for

Don Woodstock  26:05  
that? The only solution for that? And I've said this publicly already, when I am mayor of the city, that will change, but until then, they're going to miss the mark. They're missing the mark in terms of what needs to happen. Think about this for a second, and it's in the book. My plan is in this book. You know what my plan is? I tell you what it is. Imagine if we had a recycling plant that you can on one end. You bring your garbage, your plastic, your cardboard, your iron, your metal, your steel, your dirt, your everything. One end compost, bring it all and on the other end of this plant, this plant could be as big as a city block. At the other end of this plant, you have end products that are derived from everything that came in this end. And most people don't know that this recycling plant that I'm thinking of, it will pay for itself in 15 to 20 years. So if you spend $300 million for this, it pays for itself because you would use the heat that you generate from burning anything you you get the water from it. You use solar, you use geothermal. Everything you could think of, the composed material, everything the biodegradable stuff, everything you could think of happen right at the city block. You know, how many jobs you create from that. So now I have people thinking and go, Wait a minute, so you sit on welfare and you get a check from the government, the federal government, for $1,000 or, I said, $2,500 every month. Some people get $1,500 a month on welfare. How about if I was to create an environment that give you work that you'll be part of a bigger, sustainable solution. And now everybody on welfare can actually come there and participate and do something for their check, plus they get a little bit of something extra for it. Everybody on welfare would be doing it. Imagine if you had 30 to 40% of the population currently in Winnipeg who is on welfare, doing something to get a little bit more on their welfare check every month. Just imagine that for a moment. That's what I'm talking about, Matt. This will only happen when somebody like Don Woodstock become mayor.

Matt Cundill  28:37  
You've run for mayor a few times. I like that you swing for the fences, but why not run for city councilor? I did that already,

Don Woodstock  28:45  
and I recognize that based on the voting population of Winnipeg, in some areas, you could literally put a dead dog on a stick and call it NDP, and that dead dog on a stick wins the election in some areas. It's funny, you mentioned a dead dog. Normally, I say a dog with a yellow ribbon, but yeah, it probably could be dead. You're right. It could be lifeless. You mention NDP to a stick or a a bottle, and that bottle wins the election. So because of how the vote is, people will get offended by me saying so, but is the truth? That is the truth. So, help me, God. Okay, so you're left with trying to pick which constituency you want to run in. Now you have to get into the school system to be a trustee and follow the vein of the NDP, the same stronghold that the NDP has on the voting population if a school trustee is the same thing the Democrats have in the United States for this student and teachers union, it's the same bullshit. Say nonsense. It have to change. So I can't, I can't tell you that I'm going to run for city councilor and bring issues that is going to galvanize the community, you know, and people are going to listen to me. No, no, no, no, no, no. I could have zero issue. I put an NDP on my back. I went, do I want to be involved in something that I can't even have a say, or if somebody has to tell me what side of the street to walk on, when to say yes, when to say no, I'm not interested. Well, you'll never get anything done. You'll be elected, but you'll never get anything done. I totally understand. Let me ask you about composting, because I've seen some cities across Canada more invested in composting than in Winnipeg, and I just don't see a lot of those green buckets out back. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of love for composting here. And the reason, again, is the same thing when the city mentioned that they wanted to do their recycling plan, master plan. What they did was they decided to give us these big black totes for the garbage, and they were going to leave us with those little, boxy, little tote for the recycling. So again, I got an opportunity to go down to City Hall, and I made a presentation to them. As a result of my presentation, Mike practical and Garcia put another motion on the floor to vote in favor of adopting a resolution that will see us doing the bigger blue bins. Surprise, surprise, they voted unanimously to give us the bigger blue bins. Listen, when I'm elected mayor, I will have composting at the levels that you know it. The reason it's not yet done, Matt is because buddy, I'm I'm just one guy, but it will happen cuz I'm not giving up. I am not going to stop. I am going to be unrelenting. I guess

Matt Cundill  32:01  
it's safe to say you're going to be running for mayor when that time comes around in a couple of years.

Don Woodstock  32:05  
Absolutely without a doubt. Well, we'll have a lot to look forward to. Right now. They're actually copying my ideas. You see the latest survey for the City of Winnipeg. Imagine this, Matt, the City of Winnipeg did a survey, and the survey tells them that they have to spend more money into depressed neighborhoods to reduce crime. My message for the last three elections has been, what sports capital instead of crime capital? They didn't have to spend any money. They could have just asked me. I could have saved them the money.

Matt Cundill  32:41  
They don't get it, Matt. Don, hold up the book one more time for everybody to see. Unrelenting,

Don Woodstock  32:48  
get your copy. You can get the copy on my website. Don, Woodstock, unrelenting.com, Don, thanks for being on the show. I love it. Thank you, Matt, thank you for what you do, and thank you for creating that spark when it needed because somebody had to do it, I would have sent out four or five emails to four or five different radio station on a daily basis. You taught me we could change the culture. We could change the culture. So thank you.

Matt Cundill  33:20  
My thanks to Don Woodstock for joining me. His book is called unrelenting, the man who turned a local recycling push into a national plastic ban. You can go to Don Woodstock unrelenting.com to get your copy. You will likely also find his name on a voting ballot once again in Winnipeg in the near future. This show is produced by Evan sirminsky. It has been edited by Taylor McLean. Music provided by mega tracks, and it's built with passion from everyone here at the sound off media company.